read something about memes
An article on reddit titled "Meditation as meme weeding. It is interesting here to compare Zen with Islam or Christianity. At base the memes of Zen are not very sticky or infectious."
My understanding is that zen tries to avoid language and seek direct transmission (of whatever it is that they seek to transfer )**
And that if memes are rooted in language, doesn't zen seek to avoid memes ?
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esr says :
If you read the 'Dancing with the Gods' essay by esr, he says all the gods reside within us and occasionally come out and possess and take over
(channeling Pan, for example, in the essay). Such events involving direct experience of this 'magic' are denoted as 'mystical' and are characterized by descriptions like 'time stood still' along with reports of heightened perception and/or psychedelic experiences
He says all religions start with their founder having a mystical experience and wanting to share the experience and institutionalizing the method. However, over time, the practices become ineffective and 'stratified' ( a deLanda term ) and stops serving the purpose ( of effectively bringing on the mystical experience )
Inadvertently, the end gets lost and the rituals are preserved by those unaware of /unable to/unwilling to bring the experience to the participating people.
---
[deLanda's 'stratification' concept. Brilliant .http://www.techgnosis.com/delandad.html]
[Erik Davis' Lance Daybreak is also a great read ]
---
Hence, it makes sense for someone trying to communicate an 'experience' to point _around_ it, leaving clues for seekers' subconscious minds to solve on their own and wake up one day with an a!ha! moment ( known as satori in japanese zen ? enlightenment ? )
General Semantics does have the 'finger pointing at the moon' and the 'map is not the territory' isms. These essentially say the same thing but with respect to semantics and not specifically spiritual experience.
[ *I think a good name would semantic pollution. Language is just labelling ,right ? labelling of things and experiences and patterns and feelings ... and if the different things keep taking up the same label over time, the label becomes ambiguous, hence 'polluted' ]
There are essays on www.awok.org under the title 'Critique of Symbolic Thought' which explore how mistaking the syntax and labels for semantics has led to our current world problems.(everyone is out to solve our world's problems )
So, in GS words :
'instructions to achieve wow-mystical experience eventually are mistaken to stand for what they point to
- or -
instructions = map
wow-experience(or pot high) = territory
- and -
people ignore the wow-experience, and collect instructions and descriptions and talks about it -
aside :
Is this why so many religions talk about things like Wonder and Joy and Bliss and whatnot and then send you on your way wondering when you'd actually get some of that good stuff ?
Okay, back to the dubious statement in the third line -
"all memes are rooted in language"
is this so ?
Memes are part of what becomes called culture. Culture of a society is patterns in what its people do and say.
Obviously, with respect to recorded history, cultural patterns which are don't exist in the language, do not make it into the records.They die out with the people.
They wouldn't transmit too much within society, either, as the only way to transmit would be imitation - behavioural memes
1. visual - see someone else do it - nobody talks about it ,but for eg, you put one hand in your pocket when your pal does (kids), or spit in the public urinals before you begin coz you saw the next guy did....'
Driver behaviour at traffic signals ,or un-signal-led intersections is a strong example too
2. audio but non-verbal - or - follow the sound - can't think of examples
can't think of any other non-language based ways to transmit memes...
Still, memes-which-don't-have-a-representation-in-language ( non-verbal ? ) probably matter as much.
Counter argument to this is that I don't think that things that happen within your head ( mystical experience ) can be passed on without language
------
Now what is the payoff of a meme-weeded mindscape ?
Weeding out memes is of relevance only to the vector/subject at hand. And this relevance is of a purely practical nature.
It helps your dna get to the next generation by getting you to see things for real, as opposed to following memes/patterns out of habit , and hence making better decisions ( like knowing when you are over-eating )
Or when you weed out your memes and live in a reality unpolluted by symbolic mappings ( cleansed doors of perception ? ) does it take you into the realm of a higher being , or raise you into one ?
Is language a meme ?
------
Coronary. or is it Corollary ? Coriander ?
memes are just patterns that have been given a cool name in a particular context by its creator to preserve the meaning and to ensure that it retains its flavor and keeps getting passed on like a virus ( or a meme !! (self-reference !!))without fading out
one more - mind meditation will only get weed out language memes. action/body meditation (if any exists -yoga ? taichi ?) is needed to weed out behavioural memes
My understanding is that zen tries to avoid language and seek direct transmission (of whatever it is that they seek to transfer )**
And that if memes are rooted in language, doesn't zen seek to avoid memes ?
------
esr says :
If you read the 'Dancing with the Gods' essay by esr, he says all the gods reside within us and occasionally come out and possess and take over
(channeling Pan, for example, in the essay). Such events involving direct experience of this 'magic' are denoted as 'mystical' and are characterized by descriptions like 'time stood still' along with reports of heightened perception and/or psychedelic experiences
He says all religions start with their founder having a mystical experience and wanting to share the experience and institutionalizing the method. However, over time, the practices become ineffective and 'stratified' ( a deLanda term ) and stops serving the purpose ( of effectively bringing on the mystical experience )
Inadvertently, the end gets lost and the rituals are preserved by those unaware of /unable to/unwilling to bring the experience to the participating people.
---
[deLanda's 'stratification' concept. Brilliant .http://www.techgnosis.com/delandad.html]
[Erik Davis' Lance Daybreak is also a great read ]
---
Hence, it makes sense for someone trying to communicate an 'experience' to point _around_ it, leaving clues for seekers' subconscious minds to solve on their own and wake up one day with an a!ha! moment ( known as satori in japanese zen ? enlightenment ? )
General Semantics does have the 'finger pointing at the moon' and the 'map is not the territory' isms. These essentially say the same thing but with respect to semantics and not specifically spiritual experience.
[ *I think a good name would semantic pollution. Language is just labelling ,right ? labelling of things and experiences and patterns and feelings ... and if the different things keep taking up the same label over time, the label becomes ambiguous, hence 'polluted' ]
There are essays on www.awok.org under the title 'Critique of Symbolic Thought' which explore how mistaking the syntax and labels for semantics has led to our current world problems.(everyone is out to solve our world's problems )
So, in GS words :
'instructions to achieve wow-mystical experience eventually are mistaken to stand for what they point to
- or -
instructions = map
wow-experience(or pot high) = territory
- and -
people ignore the wow-experience, and collect instructions and descriptions and talks about it -
aside :
Is this why so many religions talk about things like Wonder and Joy and Bliss and whatnot and then send you on your way wondering when you'd actually get some of that good stuff ?
Okay, back to the dubious statement in the third line -
"all memes are rooted in language"
is this so ?
Memes are part of what becomes called culture. Culture of a society is patterns in what its people do and say.
Obviously, with respect to recorded history, cultural patterns which are don't exist in the language, do not make it into the records.They die out with the people.
They wouldn't transmit too much within society, either, as the only way to transmit would be imitation - behavioural memes
1. visual - see someone else do it - nobody talks about it ,but for eg, you put one hand in your pocket when your pal does (kids), or spit in the public urinals before you begin coz you saw the next guy did....'
Driver behaviour at traffic signals ,or un-signal-led intersections is a strong example too
2. audio but non-verbal - or - follow the sound - can't think of examples
can't think of any other non-language based ways to transmit memes...
Still, memes-which-don't-have-a-representation-in-language ( non-verbal ? ) probably matter as much.
Counter argument to this is that I don't think that things that happen within your head ( mystical experience ) can be passed on without language
------
Now what is the payoff of a meme-weeded mindscape ?
Weeding out memes is of relevance only to the vector/subject at hand. And this relevance is of a purely practical nature.
It helps your dna get to the next generation by getting you to see things for real, as opposed to following memes/patterns out of habit , and hence making better decisions ( like knowing when you are over-eating )
Or when you weed out your memes and live in a reality unpolluted by symbolic mappings ( cleansed doors of perception ? ) does it take you into the realm of a higher being , or raise you into one ?
Is language a meme ?
------
Coronary. or is it Corollary ? Coriander ?
memes are just patterns that have been given a cool name in a particular context by its creator to preserve the meaning and to ensure that it retains its flavor and keeps getting passed on like a virus ( or a meme !! (self-reference !!))without fading out
one more - mind meditation will only get weed out language memes. action/body meditation (if any exists -yoga ? taichi ?) is needed to weed out behavioural memes
posted by yesbob at 6:04 PM
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